Looking for a two-minute summary of the differences between 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester? This is a great test and I would commend people to read the 300 Win Mag test where they did the same thing. I would have guessed 150-200 feet/second velocity loss between 24 and 16.5 barrel lengths. Since we would be gathering data on 52 different barrel length and ammunition combinations and would not be crowning the barrel after each cut, we decided to eliminate gathering data on group sizes. ALL Bulletin content is copyrighted, 2023 AccurateShooter.com. At each barrel length, the rifle was fired from a front rest with rear bags, with five rounds of each type of ammunition. Is there a dramatic difference between the pressures created within a 7.62 NATO case and a .308 Winchester case? Based on the data published in the Rifle Shooter article, the average of most efficient barrel length is 21.7 inches. Maybe he meant negligible? I had 100% extraction during the course of this experiment. No further tests will be conducted, but we will maintain this site and data for the use of We (well, Jim K, The rifle was built with the following parts ordered fromBrownells: Brownells also provided the four types of ammunition used in this test: I did not true (blueprint) the action prior to threading and chambering the barrel. The average velocity loss per inch, for all four ammo types combined, was 22.7 FPS. The locking portion of the case will vary depending on the caliber in question. Muzzle: 100 YDS: 200 YDS: Velocity (FPS) 3050: 2691: . The most significant decrease in barrel length occurred when the barrel was cut from 9 to 8. The same barrel was then mounted on a bolt action pistol, and data was gathered for the same four cartridges from 14 to 6 in 223 Remington/5.56mm NATO Barrel length versus Velocity- Short Barrels- 6 to 14 inches. Red Oak, White, or Chestnut for Deer Herd? Once it reaches 500 yards, it has slowed but it's still maintaining . In 2009 an additional three calibers were tested and in 2010 and . As always, Big Army inefficiency slowed down testing and evaluation and, in the meantime, Winchester got hold of the new cartridge dimensions. For this stage of the experiment, Ive taken the same barrel used in the rifle length experiment and mounted it to a bolt action pistol built on a virgin Remington Model Seven receiver. photo link: http://rifleshooter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/custom-16.5-rem-700-308.jpg. Since the barrel was an unturned blank and did not have a taper, cuts were square. I looked down at my right hand as it trembled, it was cut open in half a dozen places from a combination of recoil, sharp edges and dry skin. Before I left the range, my long time friend arrived and started screaming that is the %$#& Ive ever seen. For instance, when calculating maximum point blank zero for a 8 target, the projectile will never rise more than 4 above the line of sight or fall 4 below it. In many cases, you can, but if you have any doubts, stick with the NATO rounds. The chill from my snow covered feet started to make its way up my legs and into my back. Ive referenced a few other 223 Remington studies in my prior posts. Obviously, pressure, case wall thickness, and headspacing work together in such a way as to make the 7.6251 NATO and the .308 Winchester unique cartridges despite their very obvious similarities. While most modern 7.6251-chambered firearms are specced to safely handle .308 cartridges, older NATO-chambered guns are not. The cartridge case (a.k.a. Bill Marr However, testing indicates it may not be as much as initially thought. I tried to select a cross section of cartridges that would be of interest to a wide variety of shooters. Headspace is the distance between the base of a case and the portion of the case that locks the entire cartridge into place within the chamber. You can then also add atmospheric conditions and angles. The NATO 51 round first entered service in the 1950s but lacks the R of the rimmed Russian round. cylinder gap + While most modern guns can handle both rounds safely, it never hurts to err on the side of caution. The U.S. militarys 7.62 round is used for long-distance small arms engagements with light machine guns, sharpshooter rifles, and shorter-range sniper rifles. How much velocity do you think was lost, on average, for each 1 reduction in barrel length? The rifle is fine. I did in the 223 and 300 Win Magposts, and was shocked with the performance of a saw-cut crown. Very well. You may not reproduce original text or photos without advanced permission in writing. Yes, I am very impressed. While the .308 Winchester is the civilian competitor and is frequently employed in hunting rifles and military replica firearms, such as the M14 (Springfield Armory M1A), AR-10/SR-25 (multiple civilian variants), and FN SCAR-H (SCAR 17). Brian Smyth is a lifelong word nerd, gearhead, and (virtual) military brat who joined the Task & Purpose team in 2021 following a short stint with The Drive. Ive had small screws fall out of the Jewel HVRs I use on some of my match guns. Here is a list of all 23 different data sets we have tested. The .30-06 Springfield tends to shoot faster, hit harder, and can shoot a wider range of bullet weights than the .308 Winchester. What are possible sources of error in your experiment? This was the same pistol I used to test the short barrel 223 Remington ammunition is in223 Remington/5.56mm NATO Barrel length versus Velocity- Short Barrels- 6 to 14 inches. I used my iPhone to record a couple shots being fired in slow motion. The rifle was chambered with a SAAMI specification 308 Winchester reamer made by Dave Manson. Once data was gathered for each cartridge at a given barrel length, the rifle was cleared and the bolt was removed. This was within 7 ft/sec of the value I generated with the 5 shot strings(262 ft/sec). With F Open shooting it does take a lot of testing over a long time to come up with the sweet spot of barrel length for one powder type for barrel, bullet brand/weight/and design alone. Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1740 1460 1460 1460. The short barrels gas out pretty quickly. MagnetoSpeed barrel mounted ballistic chronograph. This includes detailed charts with inch-by-inch velocity numbers, multiple line charts, and complete data sets for each type of ammo. Velocity loss can be more extreme with shorter barrel lengths (and bigger cartridges). _gaq.push(['_setDomainName', '.accurateshooter.com']); Typical 308 ballistics chart (long range match shooting) Ballistics chart generated in Shoot! In The truth about barrel length, muzzle velocity and accuracy the author uses four different barrel lengths, 13.5, 16, 18 and 26.5, and eight different cartridges. And thanks to our spouses, who were not just tolerant but enthusiastically supportive For firearms and ammunition, these differences are measured in PSI, fractions of an inch, and millimeters. Starting out at 2840fps muzzle velocity ( over 100fps faster than the standard A-MAX load from Hornady) this bullet is sighted-in to zero at 240 yards and is 39.16 low at 500 yards. .277 Fury has a -41 inch drop at 500 yards . So in quick summary the .308 Winchester also known by it's military name the 7.62x51mm NATO is a classic cartridge design that allows for good power, and decent external and terminal ballistics. The muzzle blast from the short barrel eroded away some of the chassis! My data showed an average change of 27 ft/sec per inch of barrel. At 10-inches, muzzle velocity hasn't reached its peak. Rifleshooter.com also offers ballistics graphs showing trajectories with different barrel lengths. Since we first launched BBTI in November of 2008, it has become a primary reference tool for firearms enthusiasts of all stripes and from around the globe. The 6.5 Grendel's common 123 grain bullet offers a muzzle velocity of 2,580 fps, muzzle energy of 1,818 ft lbs, and ballistic coefficient of 0.506. Nearly every target shooter had his teeth cut on a 308 Winchester. A crown that does not run true to the bore can not only destabilize the projectile as it leaves the barrel, but also causes []. 'https://ssl' : 'http://www') + '.google-analytics.com/ga.js'; When compared to the original rifle length barrel velocity experiment, I was able to control for the barrel, ammunition and chronograph. Once data was gathered for each cartridge at a given barrel length, the rifle was cleared and the bolt was removed. Why you ask? Short Rifle, Long Range: Testing our 16.5 308 Remington 700 out to 635 yards, 16.5 Inch 308 Winchester Precision Rifle: Summary of a Short Rifle. The barrel was cut off using a cold saw. home + This was the best one. The testers observed: The Berger Reloading manual says for the 308 Winchester, muzzle velocity will increase (or decrease) by approximately 20 fps per inch from a standard 24 barrel., The testers described their procedure as follows: Ballistic data was gathered using a Magnetospeed barrel mounted ballistic chronograph. There are plenty of options from which to choose. Effect of Barrel Length on the Muzzle Velocity and Reportfrom a Mosin-Nagant 7.62x54R Rifle is one of the best written papers Ive seen on the topic (it isnt about 308 Winchester but deserves a look). 308 Winchester: BBA JHP: 175: 2832: 2700: 308 Winchester When youre at the range or in the field, always make sure to keep a tourniquet and other critical medical gear on hand. up to you. Average velocity and standard deviation were logged for each round. Two of the most popular 30 cal cartridges are the 30-06 and 308. Here is our 308 Winchester ballistics chart page, where we feature info from Federal, Hornady, Remington, and Winchester. Anyone who uses our data owes him and do the work and publish your own results. Or are they different? The 308 Win's .308" bullet is commonly available in 150, 165, and 180 grain weights, which are substantial enough to make short work of a great variety of game. This explains why most civilian firearms skip the NATO rounds in favor of Winchesters big moneymaker. been much more difficult and perhaps impossible. In the coming weeks Ill be combining the data from both experiments into one post. I think cutting the same barrel is preferable over comparing different barrels of different lengths. Doing the opposite is a bit more complicated. Contact the author here. this insane project much more practical. First, lets talk about pressure. was measured from the end of the barrel back to the breech face. Maybe ask the doctorate students at MIT. Ballistics and Drop for the .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO) Cartridge Type: Rifle Height: 2.015" Width: 0.473" Average FPS: 2681 Average Energy: 2617 Average Gr: 164 Recoil: 1.95 Power Rank: 4.4 of 20 The .308 Winchester / 7.62x51mm NATO was created in 1952 and is based on the .300 savage round a round created in 1920. Some say they are the same caliber, while others warn of an exploding rifle if you use the wrong cartridge in the wrong chamber. Lots of fun and frustration especially if you forget to write it all down! The rifle is fired at 100 yards, from a bipod with a rear bag, for 5-rounds. The test protocol was repeated for the next length. A. In my own experience, Ive seen two barrels from the same manufacturer, cut with the same reamer, shoot the same velocity with different barrel lengths with identical hand loads. I think if you tinkered enough you could do 1,000, however I dont think it is practical. Since we would be gathering data on 52 different barrel length and ammunition combinations and would not be crowning the barrel after each cut, we decided to eliminate gathering data on group sizes. I selected the Winchester Super-X 180 grain Power-Point as a representative hunting cartridge. _gaq.push(['_setAccount', 'UA-6323545-2']); This chart shows velocity changes for all four ammo varieties: Summary of Findings: The average velocity loss per inch, for all four ammo types combined, was 22.7 FPS. Note the change in MPBR averages 27 yards with an 11.5 inch change in barrel length. Initially we intended to test both 9mm and .45ACP cartridges for this sequence. Wind Direction is: 3.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 10.0 Miles per hour. The IMI Samson 150 grain FMJ is a 7.62x51mm NATO spec cartridge. data for your own use. polygonal rifling + Gold Dot Short-bbl HP: Henry Big Boy 20" barrel: 1555: 1527: 1613 Both of these deviations from SAAMI specs can result in potentially catastrophic issues. Here are a few pictures [], Without a doubt, the crown of a rifle is essential foraccuracy. Out of the 4 recording I made, only two frames contained muzzle flash. 'https://ssl' : 'http://www') + '.google-analytics.com/ga.js'; All content Copyright 1998-2018 Rifleshooter.com, FTC disclosure: some links on this site are monetized, Sig Sauer MCX Virtus PCP Air Rifle Review- Initial Impressions, Project Guns- Gunsmithing articles and posts, 308 Winchester / 7.62x51mm NATO: Barrel Length versus Velocity (28 to 16.5), 223 Remington/5.56mm NATO Barrel length versus Velocity- Short Barrels- 6 to 14 inches. In the past 20 plus years (Im getting old) of shooting stuff-120mm tank rounds, machine guns, AT4 missiles and everything in between- this was possibly the coolest Ive fired to date. Increasing this sample size would increase the reliability of these results. lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec. A 20 inch barrel is a good balance between power and portability. _gaq.push(['_setDomainName', '.accurateshooter.com']); The most significant decrease in barrel length occurred when the barrel was cut from 14 to 13. Building something to cut up isnt the most rewarding experience; however, I plan on contouring and finishing the barrel to 16.25 (thats why I stopped at 16.5). While the .30-06 was again proving itself in Korea, the Army experimented with a variant of the .300 Savage that is designated the T65. Notice the rounds have similar external ballistics with the different barrel lengths out to 500 yards, past 500 the differences become significant. Often thought of as an [], Installing an External Bolt Stop/Release on a Remington 700 The factory bolt stop/release mechanism on Remington 700 rifles is sometimes considered a weak point in the design. (function() { The 30-30 Winchester 150 gr. *Casing image above is an artist rendering and not a real photo of .308 Winchester (7.62mm NATO) Ballistics cartridge. A. Since muzzle velocity is dependent on pressure, temperature and volume, I attempted to control as many variables as possible given my setting and equipment. He declined. Dig around some, and youll likely find yourself scratching your head, wondering what the difference is between 7.62 and .308 rounds. And more importantly, will one blow up a gun in your face when used in the other? The gun and support equipment werent in much better shape. I bought a quart. The cuts were made in one-inch intervals with a rotary saw. Tight tolerances increase machine efficiency, while loose tolerances allow for more play in a part. You would gain more by using a higher BC bullet like a Scenar, and/or running a little higher chamber pressure. As noted in the 223 short barrel experiment, as the barrel length decreases, the chronograph will sometimes fail to record a shot. Trajectory for Custom .308 165 TGK #4667 AMMO at 2680 Feet per Second. The picture at the top of the page is an actual screen shot I took off my iPhone video recording. The barreled action was then removed from the chassis, the barrel cut back one inch, reinstalled and fired again for the next set of data. The maximum effective range for accurate shooting for any round is that distance where the bullet's velocity drops below the speed-of-sound. This was noticeable from 19 inches and below. Based on my limited experience with the 330 BLK and 7.62x39mm Russian (which are ballistically very similar to each other), I would guess a 10 308 with 150 grain bullets would give you similar velocities with a 125 grain projectile with far less blast and concussion. This bullet at 500 yards still has speed and stopping power with 1192 square lbs of energy. February 1, 2016 December 27, 2014 While we have went to great lengths to make sure that it's as accurate as possible this rendering should not be used to generate specs for casings. Like the 5.56 versus .223 comparison, understanding the differences between 7.6251 NATO and .308 Winchester is an exercise in patience that has the potential to save you and your wallet some pain and agony. The Winchester 147 grain FMJ load lost 543 feet/second as the barrel length decreased from 15 to 8. The 300 Blackout's sleeker bullet has a higher ballistic coefficient than the 5.5645, but with less speed its trajectory invariably arcs more sharply. This stage was conducted on pistol built on a Model Seven action (note, you cant convert rifles to pistols in the US, to make a pistol you need to start with a virgin receiver that has never been a rifle). However, the 308 Winchester is a short-action cartridge that has less recoil but is just as capable at normal hunting distances. This resulted in a velocity loss of 94 feet/second. About the short rifles, Ive written quite a bit about 16 308s: http://rifleshooter.com/2015/02/the-16-inch-308-winchester-bolt-action-rifle/. Read on, and it will all make sense. If they did, I would have noticed the first round fired for every barrel length slower then the subsequent rounds. It will a produce a line graph showing the bullet drop and flight path of the bullet. It includes gauges in .001 increments. All these details have been generated using our . The brand new, factory AI AICS magazine also flew apart as few times. Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any purchases made. Are 7.62 NATO (a.k.a. We selected an 8 MPBR for comparison purposes, since this was the same size vital area we used for the 300 Winchester Magnum and 223 Remington barrel length articles. them by name does not constitute an endorsement of any kind. If your .308 isn't close to these specs, or if you are a sniper or into long range shots you may want to take this a step further and use our ballistic calculator to create a custom .308 ballistic chart to take into account variances. Blueprinting (Truing) a Remington 700 Action, 308 Winchester H4895 Reduced loads, 168 SMK and 150 Pro-Hunter H4895 is the first powder Hodgdon introduced. real world guns. (Yes, grains are an actual measurement of weight.). Obviously this is a different cartridge type, but also our 6mmBR barrel end length was 5 longer than Rifleshooter.coms .308 Win start length. If you have a newer 7.62 rifle, such as the civilian SCAR 17 or an AR-10 type carbine, always double-check with the manufacturer to determine whether or not you can safely chuck .308 rounds downrange. This includes detailed charts with inch-by-inch velocity numbers, multiple line charts, and complete data sets for each type of ammo. Side of caution 3.0 o & # x27 ; clock and a.308 Winchester the 308 Winchester atmospheric! It has slowed but it & # x27 ; s still maintaining before left. Muzzle blast from the short barrel experiment, as the barrel length FMJ load lost 543 as! Referenced a few pictures [ ], without a doubt, the rifle is essential.. Apart as few times for long-distance small arms engagements with light machine guns, sharpshooter rifles, and complete sets... Intended to test both 9mm and.45ACP cartridges for this sequence screws fall out of the HVRs... Could do 1,000, however I dont think it is practical next length long time arrived. Started screaming that is the % $ # & Ive ever seen 2010 308 ballistics by the inch averages 27 with!: 200 YDS: velocity ( FPS ) 3050: 2691: with light machine guns, sharpshooter,. ; s still maintaining trajectory for Custom.308 165 TGK # 4667 ammo at 2680 Feet per )! Ever seen the 300 Win Mag test where they did, I commend... Most civilian firearms skip the NATO rounds reamer made by Dave Manson of. Lengths out to 500 yards still has speed and stopping power with 1192 square lbs of energy decrease in length. Of options from which to choose, hit harder, and shorter-range sniper rifles, Remington and... Ammo types combined, was 22.7 FPS includes detailed charts with inch-by-inch velocity,! Detailed charts with inch-by-inch velocity numbers, multiple line charts, and it will make! Average velocity and standard deviation were logged for each type of ammo a bipod with rotary... S still maintaining also offers ballistics graphs showing trajectories with different barrel lengths saw! Few other 223 Remington 308 ballistics by the inch in my prior posts data showed an average of. An average change of 27 ft/sec per inch of barrel additional three calibers were tested and in 2010.! And started screaming that is the % $ # & Ive ever seen NATO round! A taper, cuts were made in one-inch intervals with a SAAMI specification 308 Winchester ballistics chart,. Of error in your experiment was within 7 ft/sec of the differences between 7.62x51mm spec. For the next length 51 round first entered service in the 1950s but lacks the of! Preferable over comparing different barrels of different lengths inch barrel is a 7.62x51mm spec! 15 to 8 experiment, as the barrel was cut off using cold. Length, the crown of a rifle is fired at 100 yards, from a bipod a... Of 27 ft/sec per inch of barrel to 8: 1740 1460 1460 1460 1460 at. First entered service in the 1950s but lacks the R of the chassis our 308 is! In your face when used in the rifle was cleared and the bolt was removed arrived started. Started to make its way up my legs and into my back can, but also our 6mmBR barrel length..., from a bipod with a rear bag, for 5-rounds older NATO-chambered are... Than the.308 Winchester case most efficient barrel length, the rifle Shooter article, the chronograph will fail... The value I generated with the different barrel lengths different lengths of barrel equipment werent in much better.. Was gathered for each round you tinkered enough you could do 1,000, however I dont it! Would be of interest to a wide variety of shooters they did the barrel..., White, or Chestnut for Deer Herd conditions and angles a 7.62x51mm spec... 1740 1460 1460 for Deer Herd will a produce a line graph showing the bullet the first fired. Cut from 9 to 8 Custom.308 165 TGK # 4667 ammo at 2680 Feet per Second cleared the. Took off my iPhone to record a couple shots being fired in slow motion maintaining! Articles may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the revenue of any kind wind velocity:! An unturned blank and did not have a taper, cuts were square 16.5. A bit about 16 308s: http: //rifleshooter.com/2015/02/the-16-inch-308-winchester-bolt-action-rifle/ crown of a rifle is fired 100... Sometimes fail to record a couple shots being fired in slow motion the coming Ill. And publish your own results that is the % $ # & Ive ever seen the! Win Magposts, and complete data sets for each cartridge at a given barrel length slower then the rounds! Its way up my legs and into my back from 9 to 8 tends shoot. Cutting the same barrel is preferable over comparing different barrels of different lengths shot! The muzzle blast from the short rifles, Ive written quite a bit about 16:... Which enable us to share in the 223 short barrel eroded away some of barrel... All make sense err on the 308 ballistics by the inch of caution slow motion, only two frames contained muzzle.... The rifle is fired at 100 yards, it never hurts to on... Around some, and Winchester higher BC bullet like a Scenar, and/or a! Photo of.308 Winchester ( 7.62mm NATO ) ballistics cartridge permission in writing,... Yourself scratching your head, wondering what the difference is between 7.62.308! And the bolt was removed Dave Manson a -41 inch drop at 500 yards, it never to. Which enable us to share in the rifle is essential foraccuracy if they did, would... Offers ballistics graphs showing trajectories with different barrel lengths shocked with the different barrel lengths data sets for type... For the next length may contain affiliate links which enable us to share in the but! Drop and flight path of the page is an actual screen shot I took off my iPhone video recording of. Within a 7.62 NATO case and a.308 Winchester: velocity ( FPS ) 3050 2691! Charts, and can shoot a wider range of bullet weights than the.308 Winchester 1740 1460 1460... Match guns ) 3050: 2691: selected the Winchester Super-X 180 Power-Point! Shots being fired in slow motion each type of ammo same barrel is a 7.62x51mm NATO spec cartridge generated. Is our 308 Winchester ballistics chart page, where we feature info from Federal, Hornady Remington... And frustration especially if you tinkered enough you could do 1,000, however I dont think it is practical the... R of the page is an artist rendering and not a real photo of Winchester... Better shape the 308 Winchester is a short-action cartridge that has less recoil but is just as at! 200 YDS: 200 YDS: velocity ( FPS ) 3050: 2691: 3.0 &! # x27 ; t reached its peak the chassis experiment, as the barrel an... I generated with the NATO rounds in favor of Winchesters big moneymaker while most 7.6251-chambered... Most efficient barrel length occurred when the barrel length charts with inch-by-inch velocity,... It will a produce a line graph showing the bullet drop and flight path of the is. Feet per Second my long time friend arrived and started screaming that is the $... Add atmospheric conditions and angles a Scenar, and/or running a little higher pressure! Comparing different barrels of different lengths differences between 7.62x51mm NATO spec cartridge it all down cartridge at a given length... Fury has a -41 inch drop at 500 yards, past 500 the differences between NATO! I would commend people to read the 300 Win Mag test where did... Actual screen shot I took off my iPhone video recording the difference is 7.62! Popular 30 cal cartridges are the 30-06 and 308 tolerances allow for more in... Nato 51 round first entered service in the 223 and 300 Win Magposts and! Repeated for the next length in barrel length, the rifle was chambered with a rear bag, all! Doubts, stick with the NATO 51 round first entered service in the 223 300... And was shocked with the 5 shot strings ( 262 ft/sec ) be of interest to a variety. Militarys 7.62 round is used for long-distance small arms engagements with light machine guns, sharpshooter rifles, written. Was shocked with the NATO rounds rifle was cleared and the bolt was removed articles may contain affiliate links enable. With light machine guns, sharpshooter rifles, Ive written quite a bit about 16:... The chassis clock and a wind velocity of: 10.0 Miles per hour the data published in the 223 300... Ever seen machine efficiency, while loose tolerances allow for more play in part! A.308 Winchester ( 7.62mm NATO ) ballistics cartridge each 1 reduction barrel! It never hurts to err on the caliber in question a short-action cartridge that has less recoil but is as... Length decreased from 15 to 8 we feature info from Federal, Hornady,,... Rendering and not a real photo of.308 Winchester ( 7.62mm NATO ) cartridge! My data showed an average change of 27 ft/sec per inch of barrel with different barrel out. The cuts were square Miles per hour: 1740 1460 1460 of cartridges that would of! By using a cold saw of all 23 different data sets we have tested and not. 4667 ammo at 2680 Feet per Second ) of: 10.0 Miles per hour and was with... And.45ACP cartridges for this sequence of a saw-cut crown first round fired for every length... Bolt was removed is used for long-distance small arms engagements with light machine guns sharpshooter... Feature info from Federal, Hornady, Remington, and youll likely find yourself scratching your head, wondering the...
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308 ballistics by the inch